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eddiewilson
Very Active Contributer
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:21:37
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I've been playing heel-up for about 15 years and have started trying to mix it up a bit. I think I might've just spent to long watching Steve Smith and JoJo Mayer DVDs. Also, I had the pleasure of grabbing a quick chat with Gregg Bissonette at the drum show who mentioned his transition from playing heel-up to down.
Has anyone else found this as difficult as I currently am? I'm finding I've had to change everything like stool height, forward position of toms, cymbal placement, loads of things. Has anyone got any advice? |
www.myspace.com/eddiewilsonsound
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mully
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
23892 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:28:19
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Tried it, hated it, stopped doing it.
Stephen |
MD Fount of All Wisdom for Life and Extraordinary Amusement Officer of the forum's Sonor Delite Appreciation Society.
"Jayz mully, you're like the Django of the internet!" - scottser on the Drumming Ireland forum |
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beezerk
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
29118 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:36:08
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| Also hate it, I used to get a terrible ache at the front of my shin/ankle when playing heel down for a prolonged periods, I had to move further away to reduce the angle of my ankle to ease it but as Eddie says that means rearranging the kit to suit. |
http://photobucket.com/albums/c41/beezerkdrums/
Let's go Eskimo! |
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eddiewilson
Very Active Contributer
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
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Allegro
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1524 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:42:16
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| I sometimes use the heel-up as part of a combined heel-down/heel-up technique, as I find I can get more speed out of this method. I think this is demonstrated on the JoJo Mayer’s DVD I have. |
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piph
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 13:59:45
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| In my experience the transition from heel up to heel down is much harder than the other way around. For me, my heel only comes up for patterns involving more than 2 strokes in quick succession. A great exercise for getting a clean rebound is to remove the spring from your pedal and start with the beater resting all the way back, then work on throwing the beater at the head and letting it rebound to it's reating point after each stroke, keeping your heel down at all times. Not a new idea...it's a Dennis Chambers thing. Used to work wonders with my students. |
Ludwig, Rogers, HipGig. Too many snare drums. Lots of K's. Endorsee for Protection Racket, KickPort and De La Cruz Custom Drumkeys. |
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OriginalAnimal
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
19300 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 14:04:04
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If it hurts it's bad for you, just like sitting low, it isn't natural, your thighs should always be angled down to your knees
Is it any wonder drummers get back & leg problems? |
I have no time to practice, I'm gigging. Leicester Drum Sniffers Anonymous. #17 of the 582 & 17 0f the 798 World Record Holders.
Jobeky, 2Box Drumit 5, Premier, Highwood/DM drums Paul Brook Snare, Matt Nolan cymbals, Silverstone Drum (seats) Thrones. Los Cabos drumsticks
Re Cycling drums is the future. |
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eddiewilson
Very Active Contributer
United Kingdom
118 Posts |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5231 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 14:20:48
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I have been working with Jeff Lardner for Van Morrison and Jeff plays heel down.He had lessons with Bob Armstrong..maybe Bob advocates this?
Whatever suits your style really?
Most rock drummers play heel up for the power as the FOH guy cannot push the fader up!! |
Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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Tex
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1582 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 15:55:01
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From vids I see mostly that the players who say they play heel down play like I'm doing now with the heel just off the pedal. Should be called "low heel". It means that you can just lower the heel a nalf-inch and rest between beats.
The actual full heel down is very stressful if you've played heel up for years.
Start heel down to get the feel for a few minutes and then raise the heel just an inch. Get used to pushing your heel down in the rests. Play full heel up for accents.
Sit normal. Then put your left heel just under and left of cntre of your stool and stand up.
Play the bass drum by tapping with your right foot with the heel high(health and safety: hold onto a passing roadie/girl singer/live terminal for balance). Start with the heel high and move the heel down as you tap. Anything happen?
In my case I get more power with a low heel with very little effort.
Start to sit slowly (you will need support here) keep tapping your foot. At whatever point your foot starts to lose articulation is where you want the seat height. (Don't tell me. You're all sitting on the floor.)
My interpretation of heel-down is it's just a bit lower for standard taps, up for accents and down for the end of flurries and patterns so it can relax in the rests.
It's not a quick fix and for some it is not easy. None of the "usual suspect" type techniques are easy. Like the old Bullworker home weight trainers (remember them) you play around on it for a half hour with your big brothers Bullworker (Ooh! Missus!) and then you find you can't move a muscle for two days.
They're all a bit like that. Effortless until the next day and you wonder why you can't do it any more. |
Sitting on top of the mountain isn't the most interesting bit of the climb. Sitting at the bottom aint much fun either. |
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2033 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 17:38:29
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| Stick with what you know/do best, trying to play like someone else doesn't mean you'll aquire their skills,, |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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ian-40
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6208 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 19:28:32
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I can do either with no problem. heel down for the more relaxed/easier song, heel up for the odd song that has fast beater strokes.
Heel down - toe of shoe right up the board, almost on the linkage/chain
Heel up - ball of foot 2/3 up or 'sweet spot |
26 |
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DyeHouseDrumWorks
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
185 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 20:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Yard
I have been working with Jeff Lardner for Van Morrison and Jeff plays heel down.He had lessons with Bob Armstrong..maybe Bob advocates this?...
I seem to remember a student of his telling me this very thing.
Heel-down is great for more quiet control, and I think the Bob Armstrong notion I heard was that it also enabled playing a 'closed' (pushing the beater into the head) and 'open' (allowing it to bounce back) tone, similar to conga playing.
I could see the merit in that if you're using an open tuning on your kick drum.
I have students who favour heel down and manage plenty of volume and pace.
I guess it's like grip preference - but be careful not to get caught up in 'fashion' and change for change's sake. |
Dye House Drum Works. Find us on Facebook and at at: www.dyehousedrumworks.com |
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Steevo114
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 21:11:18
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For me, it's simply a question of playing to the volume I'm needing, so that translates to Loud/ heel up quieter/ heel on pedal.
I think if you relax and just try to play the figure you have in mind, at the volume you have in mind, your body will actually figure it out after a while. You didn't have to teach yourself how to walk, it just happens because you WANTED to.
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Perception is all |
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drumtuningworkshops
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
341 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 21:11:27
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Interestingly it can be a pedal thing too...
I learnt to play on a one piece footboard Hollywood Meazzi pedal with strap drive, and that naturally helped you keep your heel down...much the same as a Premier 252 does aswell.
The action with a one piece is that as you strike with the beater the heel plate comes up!
(It follows the same rotational path as the ankle...)
Its a very natural feel curiously...and I can play faster doubles heel down than up.
But you can only play so loud heel down.
The weight of an entire leg coming down on a pedal has much more clout than the muscles in your shin...so this is where it's useful to have both in your bag.
Good technique is to be able to bury OR play off the BD using BOTH heel styles!
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Remo Tuning Days:
DrumShop May 18th/PMT Brum June 8th/PMT Leeds 15th June/Drumstop June 22nd |
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paiste
Advanced Contributer
395 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 23:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by OriginalAnimal
If it hurts it's bad for you, just like sitting low, it isn't natural, your thighs should always be angled down to your knees
Is it any wonder drummers get back & leg problems?
Really? I have always sat with my thighs parallel to the floor. any higher than that and it feels uncomfortable and unnatural. Surely it should be what's comfortable for the individual. |
Boots n' Cats n' Boots n' Cats n' Boots n' Cats n' Flats in Dagenham |
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thebeaver
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1838 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 23:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Yard
I have been working with Jeff Lardner for Van Morrison and Jeff plays heel down.He had lessons with Bob Armstrong..maybe Bob advocates this?
I'm currently with Bob and I can tell ya he advocates playing the whatever technique is right for that particular song you're playing, at that particular moment in time. E.g. heel down for some Jazz feathering or general quiet, non busy bass drum work, but then knock it up to heel up when you need a bit more power and or speed. (He's also spoken to me briefly about the open/close thing DyHouseDW was talking about).
I cant see how anyone can rely solely on just heel up or just heel down. They're completely different techniques giving totally different sounds and advantages. Different situations call for different techniques. Use both. It's like saying "should I drum with just brushes or just sticks?". |
Tunbridge Wells Music School
www.twmusicschool.com |
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beezerk
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
29118 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 06:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by paiste
quote:
Originally posted by OriginalAnimal
If it hurts it's bad for you, just like sitting low, it isn't natural, your thighs should always be angled down to your knees
Is it any wonder drummers get back & leg problems?
Really? I have always sat with my thighs parallel to the floor. any higher than that and it feels uncomfortable and unnatural. Surely it should be what's comfortable for the individual.
Yup, I think the use of "always" was a touch OTT  |
http://photobucket.com/albums/c41/beezerkdrums/
Let's go Eskimo! |
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mully
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
23892 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 08:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by OriginalAnimal
If it hurts it's bad for you, just like sitting low, it isn't natural, your thighs should always be angled down to your knees
Many, including me, would disagree.
Stephen |
MD Fount of All Wisdom for Life and Extraordinary Amusement Officer of the forum's Sonor Delite Appreciation Society.
"Jayz mully, you're like the Django of the internet!" - scottser on the Drumming Ireland forum |
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6141 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 08:44:27
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| Roughly comparing feet to hands: for me I would say heel down equates to low stick height (ghosts/quiet) and heel up to higher (accents) stick height. |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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logic_user99
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
10128 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 09:35:02
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| I play heel half-up - !!! - on both my kick and hi-hat. |
Drums | Cymbals | Sticks
"Starting my professional life from scratch..." |
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animal.22
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
180 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 12:59:05
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| I've tried playing heel up but I allways feel like I'm going to fall off my stool if my heels aren't planted on the floor! Three points of contact......most stable. |
hit it....good an hard |
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Tex
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1582 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2012 : 13:46:21
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| The best of both sides is to play in high heels of course. |
Sitting on top of the mountain isn't the most interesting bit of the climb. Sitting at the bottom aint much fun either. |
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