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blackoperations
New Contributer
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
 Posted - 30/05/2012 : 22:11:01
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i first saw someone on cymbalholic recommending jb weld (a cold weld) to fix cracked cymbals, or at least put some life back in them for a while longer! i've since read about it a couple of other places and watched a few instruction videos on youtube, etc (were using it on other metal items there though, not cymbals).
i've got as sabian aa metal-x 24" that has a small crack about 2" in fron the edge. it's a thick heavy cymbal and this crack i'm pretty sure has not gone completely all the way through the cymbal. it's more visible on the underside and you can feel it with your nail. it's not even that visible on the top but you can just feel it with your nail, so it's there, but only just and not as much as underneath. as the crack is so thin it's gonna be hard to get the weld in as we being discussed on that forum, they were saying to drill the edges but the crack is not big enough for that (you can not see through it at all or anything like that), so i'm thinking just to try and spread the stuff into it both sides and hope for the best really. the thing is cracked, that's for sure, so i have nothing to lose really. the crack killed the volume and response of the cymbal pretty much instantly (happened in the middle of a gig), if this stuff can even get the cymbal towards even 3/4 of what it was i will be more than happy, but i don't want to try fixing it until i've heard a few more opinions from other people who've used it with and/or without success.
by the way, i got the weld from ebay for about a fiver plus postage. what could be an almost miracle-like cure for alot of your cracked cymbals for the price of a couple of pints!
thanks in advance for any responses.
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Anthra Kx
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6337 Posts |
Posted - 30/05/2012 : 22:45:19
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the way I see it, if you got nowt to lose, give it a go and be sure to tell us the results.
tbh, I never heard of jb weld, but being a completely different material/molecular structure blah blah etc to the cymbal alloy, I cant see it bringing the sound back to where it was originally, but it would be interesting to know.
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yellow Resonator
All posts are based on one of the following:
I know what I'm talking about
I'm having a stab in the dark
I'm bored
You're an idiot and I'm poking you with sticks |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 08:16:08
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JB Weld is an American copy of Araldite and Chemical Metal two part Epoxy Glues. Despite its extravagant claims and advertising it is no better than other epoxy glue, but just a rip off of genius Norman de Bruyn's patents. It does NOT "Weld" any item!
Give it a go if you like, but probably just one direct stick hit on the glued (that's GLUED, NOT WELDED!) area will shatter the Epoxy and you'll be back where you started. Even a small amount of GLUE stuck onto a cymbal is likely to dull its tone slightly.
I consider that drilling a hole at the very end of the crack is better to stop the crack spreading.
I did try Loctite 601 Retaining Compound on one cracked cymbal as an experiment. This is a sugary solution with various anaerobic activators. When between two tight fitting items (the edges of the crack) the liquid crystallises, and the sharp pointed crystals grow into each side, to act as thousand of tiny pins. this lasted quite a while, and is in my opinion a far better bet than any glue, but only really delays the inevitable need for drilling.
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Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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teethmeister
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
948 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 09:03:01
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JB is a little different from Araldite in that you can tap threads into it. But it's not going to help with an edge crack. I've used it in the past on bell cracks and it's been OK - where the amplitude of vibration is not high. I tried it once on a bow crack and it left the cymbal about as dead as it was before the crack, but did remove the buzzing.
Drilling the end(s) of the crack will prolong the life a little. Find the end(s) by soaking black ink into the crack so you can see it properly. Actually, drill a little beyond the visible end(s). I say end(s) as it may well fork into multiple cracks. The crack will probably still buzz or hiss and deaden the cymbal, so you'll need to file or hack-saw it into a narrow slot so the sides don't touch any more.
But, in all truth, you will get the longest life out of the cymbal (and 99% the same sound that you had before the crack) by taking a great big wide shallow scallop out of the cymbal. Some folks find this ugly, but it is the best solution sound and cymbal life wise. If you cut a slot or even a V-shape, there is still a lot of concentrated stress around the tip of the cut. For a 2" crack, you'll need something like a 7 or 8" wide arc shaped cut-out. |
http://www.mattnolancustom.com/ |
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Henry Piper
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 09:13:37
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[quote]Originally posted by Captain Bubble
Give it a go if you like, but probably just one direct stick hit on the glued (that's GLUED, NOT WELDED!) area will shatter the Epoxy and you'll be back where you started. Even a small amount of GLUE stuck onto a cymbal is likely to dull its tone slightly.
I consider that drilling a hole at the very end of the crack is better to stop the crack spreading.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the general concensus is that drilling is the only way to "repair" cracks, and that is not a gauranteed permanent fix.
as Marcus says, no amount of "poxy" resin is going to "weld" anything, and whilst its perfectly possible to braze over a crack I cant see it ever sounding exactly the same.
A couple of years aga a friend of mine who is a jewellery maker and lectures at local authority evening classes was asked by a student to attempt to braze up a crack in a cymbal for one of his students, and while the crack was certainly REpaired the sound was definitely IMpaired !! this chaps opinion was that in order to restore anything like an original sound the whole cymbal would need re-tempering and re-lathing,
I think the best thing to do with cracked cymbals is drill, and enjoy them for as long as you can, or in a worse case cut them down and use them fora different sound.
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 09:18:43
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Yup Matt, JB is different to Araldite, but it is really the same as Chemical Metal, and basically they are both Araldite with added metal powder and a slightly different chemical formula to produce a slightly harder glue, which as you say can be tapped. Even though it can be tapped, I would prefer to use CM or Araldite to set a metal thread insert into a well-keyed hole if the threads are going to be under any real force or vibration, as the glue threads can disintegrate.
Quite agree about the scallop, and this has the added advantage that if you angle your cymbals, then the scalloped area, being lighter, will tend to be opposite the playing area so it will get hit far less, thus reducing the chance of any micro cracks enlarging. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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sludge
Advanced Contributer
806 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 11:25:33
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I quite agree the description 'weld' is completely misleading. Although its similar have you tried Belzona in its various forms? Its much better stuff and many times the price as its industrial use. I have little doubt that sound would be badly affected though.
Alternatively what about TIG welding? Do you think reworking (hammering) afterwards would alleviate any of the effects of welding on sound? |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 11:35:58
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Matt might correct me, but in my opinion brazing, silver soldering or any form of welding such as TIG are very bad ideas indeed! Silver soldering is probably the lowest temperature method ( I use a standard plumber's gas torch for silver soldering, and even that is far too much heat for a cymbal. It will alter the cymbal's temper, create new stresses in the surrounding area, the infill will be a different hardness to the rest of the cymbal and this will rapidly cause fatigue cracks either side of the weld/solder.
Normal electrical solder is too cool to get a good repair for a cymbal, and the solder is too soft.
@sludge: Which particular Belzona product? I have used their Elastomer for timpani clutch surfaces but though they just made synthetic rubbers and did not know they made adhesives. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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sludge
Advanced Contributer
806 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 12:01:03
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Hi, i thought TIG because its the lowest heat input for a structural repair and so as to minimise or even avoid filler metal. It could well need stress relieving over some area afterwards, see what happens perhaps. Might it be useful to stop the crack tip with it? Its a specialist job of course but at v low settings 5/10/15 Amps for thin stuff could be worth some trials.
I have had a dabble with doing copper tube but there are so many settings it would take a while to refine it.
Belzona make lots of products, repair pastes for bearing faces, shafts, eroded surfaces etc etc so wearing and non-wearing surfaces that can be machined afterwards. I have seen them used in power stations and in their blurb.
As for which one i really don't know, helpful i know :S. I think the problem with all those sorts of spread paste type materials is how mauch would need to be spread beyond the affected area and the affect of subsequent flexing on it as well as it damping the cymbal.
You are also aware how much the damn stuff costs  |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 12:17:15
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I think TIG is a bit cooler than MIG, but perhaps not, perhaps the heat is the same but far more focussed and localised. I have a gut feeling that it would still be hot enough to discolour the bronze, and that is immediately a sign of structural damage; welding/brazing heat can also distort the shape of a cymbal around the worked area. Also curious about how TIG might perhaps be just about alright for reasonably thick sheet metal cymbals, but perhaps less so for cast ones.
Might have to check Belzona's range again, it is 20 years since I used their Elastomer, and technology has moved on! |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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gdrumfoot
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
996 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 13:27:06
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| About 15 years ago a large crack appeared in the top cymbal of my Paiste 2002 Soundedge hi-hats at the base of the bell. As I was working at a place where many different metals were being used/repaired I showed it to one of the guys and after explaining what a cymbal is made of he said simply "no problem I can fix that, I'll weld it" I used it on the next few gigs not hoping for much despite his kindness,to my suprise it not only held up but there was no difference in sound.I asked him a while later what he did as it not supposed to work. He said " easy, it was a copper weld" Five years later it was still as good as ever after much pounding in a rock band till it was nicked. This isn't my subject and I'd never heard of a copper weld before of since, perhaps Marcus or Matt would care to comment. |
Black Country drum technique = Gi'e it sum 'Ommer!
Tama, Gibraltar, Mapex, Ludwig, LP, Meinl, Sabian, Zildjian, Dream,Roland & Jobeky. |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 13:41:08
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| No, I have never heard of a copper weld, are you still in contact with him? Can you get any more details? |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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gdrumfoot
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
996 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 14:17:40
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Sadly I only knew him as "Pedro" as he has a Spanish father. He worked on the Severn Valley Railway (hence the different metals, copper boiler tubes, white metal etc) as a full time staff member, not just a steam buff. I left in '96 and I believe he left eventually and went to live in another part of the country.
I do remember he said he actually had to enlarge the crack to enable the repair, so it was possibly then more "a hole filled" rather than a "crack joined together" perfectly smooth, same contour as the whole of the cymbal,the only difference was the appearance where the crack was now seemed more "golden" and a more ligher shade |
Black Country drum technique = Gi'e it sum 'Ommer!
Tama, Gibraltar, Mapex, Ludwig, LP, Meinl, Sabian, Zildjian, Dream,Roland & Jobeky. |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 14:25:04
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That sounds to me like brazing, hence the lighter colour of the brass brazing rod. I have brazed various metals but not cymbals. I was given one which had been brazed, but there were big brass "slugs" all along the cracks, and a lot of heat distortion, perhaps done by a botcher but certainly bad enough to put me off trying brazing a cymbal. I can silver solder tolerably so that might be something to try, and there will be no slugs to grind away. Sounds like Pedro was particularly talented.
Severn Valley Railway another on my long list to visit. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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teethmeister
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
948 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 19:40:07
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You can Silver Solder, or - it would seem, and I have no reason to doubt it - Copper Weld B8 and B15 cymbals - i.e. Paiste 2002, Signatures, Sound Formulas. So long as you do it very well and very carefully. And probably do an overall anneal afterwards also. Avoiding distortion is going to be tricky.
But a B20 cymbal - Zildjian, Sabian, UFIP, Paiste Twenty, any Turkish or Chinese cymbal, etc. - is not going to like it one bit. You take any part of it over about 350 degrees C and it will get brittle for sure. Possibly even at lower temperatures than that. No way do you want to melt it. So you need an extremely strong and well adherent filler with a low melting point. And you don't want to leave any kind of bead.
Still going to have difference in density / stiffness around the repair - as the good Captain points out - which will amplify local stresses leading to more cracking in the long run.
Such is life I'm afraid...
:-) |
http://www.mattnolancustom.com/ |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14790 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 19:47:42
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| I wonder if you could solder B20s with Fusible Alloy. It has a much lower melting point, but might be too soft to be much use. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Unkle Kev
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1461 Posts |
Posted - 31/05/2012 : 20:00:07
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| Sabian AA Metal X crashes crack like Katie Price opens her legs. Easily and often. I have two and they both cracked in several locations within a few weeks of the first crack appearing. Drilling could slow it, but the best solution I found was to cut a shallow and wide scallop out using a low speed drill, tin snips and a fine file to shape the new edges. Both are still payable after the surgery. This only works on cracks smaller than 5mm. Any bigger and you'll affect the sound. |
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